As you may have heard, REFUSED recently played some reunion shows in NYC. Of course, washed up hipsters jizzed in their pants as soon as they heard about it on Brooklyn Vegan, and they sold out 5 nights at a 2000-cap venue. In this video, Scott Vogel shares his thoughts on these ‘legendary reunions,’ which pretty much mirror my feelings (Via B9):

“[these bands] disappear, they don’t go to shows, they don’t support new bands, they don’t buy demos, they don’t give a fuck about me or you. But for some reason, we give them our dollars to come back and play for us, a fake shell of what they were.”

The really ironic part IMO is that the kind of people who go to things like the REFUSED reunion shows are the biggest dickbag fuckholes that are always quick to give you their unsolicted, excessively strong opinions on what is and isn’t hardcore, despite the fact that they haven’t actually paid attention to hardcore in 10 years and never really liked it in the first place. Like IKEACORE fggts, the truth is that they were never really into hardcore, they just went flirted with it for a little while before moving on to indie rock, hipster metal, being an iPod DJ, or whatever other gay shit posers do when their 1.5 year ‘hardcore’ phase is over. They couldn’t tell you a single current band, haven’t been to a local hardcore show in a decade, but that doesn’t stop them from telling you (at length) why hardcore sucks in 2012 and how [insert oldfag band] is REAL hardcore unlike all these new bands!

I’m with Vogel on this one: support bands like SOIA, Madball, Terror, New Found Glory and Hatebreed that never ‘grew out of’ hardcore. Support sweet newer bands like Xibalba, Nails, Harms Way and City Lights that play DIY shows and make kids lose their minds. Disregard pretentious assholes who sit on the sidelines and talk shit on hardcore, except when it’s time to cash in on hipster-filled reunion shows. Go be cynical somewhere else, fggts.

About Sergeant D

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231 Responses to TERROR calls out REFUSED

  1. 808BUMP says:

    10000 TIMES YES!

  2. PCHhomeboy says:

    love that you call out Refused for “not going to local shows”…. 1, not like you know that to be true. 2, not like you go to local shows either, brah. 3, stop being so butthurt. this site is supposed to be fun. This post is all NFC up on your ass.

    side note, shape of punk to come is way better than anything terror has ever released… hatebreed over everyone though

    • Sergeant D says:

      brb going to DIY hall shows
      brb buying the touring bands merch
      brb not listening to gay Eurocore bands

      • ASTV says:

        And it’s cunts like you that think you know hardcore when you use a term like “Eurocore” like hardcore in Europe isn’t as decent as bands made in a fucking continent masquerading as a country.

      • PCHhomeboy says:

        ay dude, you have really run this site into the ground… it used to be way more fun when you didn’t whine all the time…

        and the point is that you said yourself that you have a cushy job and you stay at home on the internet all the time but then you shit on refused for not being in the scene anymore. you arent in the scene anymore either

        i dont care thats what you do bc its what i do too but i didnt rip apart refused for something that i do too.

        • Sergeant D says:

          Well, it’s true that I don’t go to shows as much as I did when I was 19, for obvious reasons. But I do still go to SOME shows, and I definitely give props to tons of new bands on this site, which is essentially the same thing as when I did zines years ago only literally thousands of times more people see this site than ever saw my dumb zines.

          And you are right, sometimes I do whine, and I appreciate it when people point out to me that I am being a butthurt fggt (srs, I really do).

          • Anonymous says:

            Yeah bro lately you have been sounding pretty angry for no reason both on your tumblr and on here, stay posi brah

            • Sergeant D says:

              I appreciate the nudge in the right direction (srs)– thanks for pointing it out!

            • Anonymous says:

              that feel when the best advice you can give someone is telling them to try less hard (via more natural, informal flow of words and lack of witty Pitchfork cynicism) luv u man good luck w/ your being rich goals for 2011

            • Sergeant D says:

              are you telling me that i need to be less formal? i can see how stilted, old-fashioned terminology like ‘butthurt fggt’ could come off as uptight.

          • cougar party says:


        • Lear says:

          Stop reading then. (*White Knight Mode – Activated*)

        • Chillin' says:

          That embarrassing moment when you call out someone for being butthurt while your anus is clearly bleeding.

      • comrade V says:

        BRB starting european version of stuff you will hate just to be a eurowhore.

  3. Stijn Edge says:

    I disagree. Refused’s people never grew out of hardcore, their bands were off the “hardcore cool meter”. They kept playing in bands, they kept supporting small local bands. This time, scott vogel is full of shit because the bands refused people played in were never cool enough to be picked up. this one is called keep your mouth shut. try taking those lyrics to heart, mr Vogel.

    Refused was an amazing show, by the way, I am stoked I got to see them.

  4. Gohannabis says:

    Man, that was a great way to start the day!

  5. Tommy says:

    you know why dude? it’s cause you’re playin the same shit as the other gazillion HC bands out there, and giving speeches instead of playin’. HCrers are always complaining about people not going to shows, but what’s the point in that? You think if i liked your crappy band i would have stayed home?

  6. Percy Mirin says:

    Inb4 monumental butthurt. Whoops too late.

  7. HAMTARO says:

    yo imma ride your dick for a minute and say that i agree with everything here. call me a stupid tough guy but i hate pretentiousness and hipster fggtry. keep it ignorant.

    • TLDR says:


      • steez Messiah says:

        Brains have no place in hardcore. KEEP IT IGNANT
        On the real tho, Refused is hardcore for hipster faggots that want the dollar tree equivalent to hardcore that way its not only a cheap knockoff of something that’s been done already but it give hipsters a chance to feel like their better than everyone else via artsy-bs-cred.

  8. nimplysaked says:

    U seem mad, Sarge

    • Sergeant D says:

      the part that makes my butt hurt is not the reunion shows themselves, its how so many of these bands and their fans get up on their high horse and lecture everybody about what is and isnt hardcore

      • beholdthesharktopus says:

        “Terror isn’t real hardcore! Listen to Discharge or Amebix if you want REAL hardcore!”

      • PCHhomeboy says:

        then why are u defending terror in this??? vogel is being a whiny bitch. refused didnt say shit about hardcore… they just showed up and played

      • TLDR says:

        I remember reading an interview with Vogel, and him saying something like “hardcore isn’t a music genre, its a community and a culture. Whenever hardcore kids play music, its a hardcore band.”

        Love Terror and love this fucking post. I wish I knew which song they played after this epic callout

        • Sergeant D says:

          Whenever hardcore kids play music, its a hardcore band

          THIS x 1 zillion (bigs ups to NFG and Fallout Boy, srs)

          • TLDR says:

            Also Killswitch Engage, all the deathcore bands I don’t listen to, and anyone else that puts breakdowns in their music because they go to shows and want to bring the mosh, but gets called “not tr00 hxc” by faggot hipsters

          • Anonymous says:

            Gotta say I disagree with that quote, that kind of mentality is what allowed bands like Title Fight and Defeater to become popular with hardcore dudes, #feelsbadman

        • Anonymous says:

          it was “at one with the underdogs,” it’s in the title of the video (barely)

  9. Mark says:

    This whole rant = “wah wah wah’. I went to Groezrock this weekend, saw both bands, and Refused absolutely smashed it.

  10. thefaceplant says:

    Shitty hardcore bands doing reunion tours: what happens when you don’t make 401k/IRA contributions until you’re in your late 30s.

  11. mayo says:

    I don’t care about Refused and I think Terror is cool. But that said, Vogel seems like a bitter oldfag that some euros without “tr00 hXc cred” are making more money this year than his band probably made in their career. Nigga, you’re like 45, quit throwing a tantrum about the mp3s that members of the Refused may or may not be importing on their respective iPods. Ridiculous.

  12. adam ryan says:

    yeah im walking the fence on this one. i love refused and hey literally put me on the path to hardcore. i was an epitaph, fat wreck chords, asian man records skater punk and then The Shape Of Punk To Come was released and i bought it with some extra money i had even though i had never heard of them (i just saw they were on epitaph and i would like it) side note: this is pre-internet, i was taking a big risk.

    anyhow come 13 years later and that record still goes hard and i could give a fuck less what kinda lame hipster turds love them. they have always been the most “punk’ of hardcore bands IMO. just doing what they wanted and doing it good. i love hardcore and i love terror and i love refused, im growing up and married but i still do my part to get drunk and livingroommosh to amazing new bands. seems like we are splitting hairs here.

    • Neon Jesus says:

      ^This is basically the boat I’m in.

      I love the Refused because Shape of Punk to Come got me out of my ‘woe is me, i hate my life’ grunge music phase and got me into hardcore where I then discovered bands like Madball and Sick of It All and such. Basically I think Vogel sounds butthurt because no one likes his Hatebreed cover band, but at the same time I do agree with him that SOME of the members of Refused turned their backs on the hardcore scene. They didn’t support it and do seem to be cashing in on their posthumous fame. I have the “Refused Are Fucking Dead” DVD and they wouldn’t even be in the same room as each other to do interviews and now they are touring and playing shows? Something doesn’t seem right about that.

  13. Ink Deep says:

    I was actually at this hahaha, and I thought about SYWH when he said this. The one bit I didn’t really get though was when he called out dudes who pretend to be hardcore band just to get money. I didn’t know there was money in hardcore? It seems like a really bad business strategy IMHO.

  14. Save Parker says:

    Who the fuck cares?

    Band breaks up, gains following after they’re done, reunites and takes money from people who never really liked the genre they played anyway, profits and then goes away forever. Seems like a working system.

  15. beholdthesharktopus says:

    Science bless this post. Could not have said it better myself, and I’ve tried to put this into so many words so many times.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Despite all the bullshit you throw at IMNs, you just revealed yourself to basically be the HC equivalent. Welcome to the NFC, here is your membership card.

    My thoughts go out to you in this hard time of anal anguish, please, be safe. I implore you to go through some of your older posts to remind yourself how you used to be.

    • Sergeant D says:

      i reserve the right to experience anal pain from time to time

      • Charlie Brown says:

        It is your right as human being, with a butt, to experience it’s pain.

        If your butt doesn’t hurt from time to time, you aren’t living.

        If your butt hurts all the time, you shouldn’t be living.

        • Sergeant D says:




          • Charlie Brown says:

            It’s a rite of passage. We all go through periods of extreme butt hurt. Some make it out, others get consumed by the hurt so bad that they end up turning into giant, perpetually hurting asses.

            It is human to experience the butt hurt. It never ceases, you can just learn to deal with the hurt and move on with your life.

            For example, douche bag hipster refused fans. No one probably likes them at all. There is nothing wrong with liking refused as long as you don’t go around parading your “superior” tastes around. However, most of them do parade their superior tastes around and I bet a portion of these fans have heard nothing but the shape of punk to come anyway.

            Sources: my douche bag friends.

            brb changing my major to therapy

        • Anonymous says:

          brothers in buttfrustration

  17. JoeTheRipper says:

    If it hadn’t sold out, I’d say go and smack around some hipster scum. Never pass up the opportunity to break some thick-rimmed glasses.

  18. jcj says:

    So did Terror not cash the check they got when they opened for Refused?

    • Sergeant D says:

      I don’t care about the cashing in part; if bands can get paid, that’s great. It’s the part where they talk shit on newer bands that bums me out (not really speaking specifically about Refused, just 90% of oldfag bands in general).

      • jcj says:

        imagine all the demos Vogel can buy with that wad of cash!

        Personally, if I don’t agree with a band/buisness ethics, I don’t shop there or see them. I see this as no different. If they felt that strongly about the reunion they should have declined the invite.

        Calling them out after the fact is ridiculous to me, why not make a stand prior. Or setup a DIY show on the same night for the folks that wanted to see Terror.

        • Sergeant D says:

          imagine all the demos Vogel can buy with that wad of cash!

          *picturing him making a beeline for Rick Ta Life’s distro table*

          • TLDR says:

            Holy shit, that is the most ridiculous distro table I’ve ever seen. Everything is so outrageously overpriced. I remember my band played a few shows with them, and the first night he somehow convinced us to trade a few of our EP’s for his shitty home made “street edition” (burned CD) album or whatever. The next show, he was selling our EP’s for 12$. Not mad I just thought it was hilarious, nobody would pay 12$ for our record

  19. Mills2k says:

    I’m also on the fence – agree with the point that bands like Hatebreed, Sick Of It All etc deserve credit for sticking to their guns without becoming a meandering parody of themselves. I also agree with the points about people going ‘hardcore in 2012 sucks’ when they don’t even bother to check out new bands and see if it actually DOES or not.

    Don’t really agree with much else. Didn’t see Refused so can’t judge but if they put on a mindblowing performance, which apparently they did, who cares?

  20. Lear says:

    Backed hard. Reunion shows are fucking bullshit, usually about money and for some reason kids lose their minds. Doesn’t feel legit. If a band quit and packed it in, why should I give a fuck that they’re back? It’s like people claiming straight edge the second time around.

    I back pretty much anything Vogel preaches on stage. He’s been playing shit venues for about 20 years with actual hardcore bands and always stayed true and avoided trends and bullshit. He probably gave this exact same speech in 1999 about another stupid band, and he’ll probably give this speech again in 2019.

    I got chills at the end of this video. If I was in that room I would have moshed my fucking dick off.

    Vogel > Refused

    Also, The Shape Of Punk To Come is a rock n’ roll album.

    • beholdthesharktopus says:

      I always saw Refused as the type of band that thought they were too cool to make money or play large festivals for a paycheck because they were too “authentic” or “punk” or whatever. Ain’t it funny how that all works?

    • Sergeant D says:

      Also, The Shape Of Punk To Come is a rock n’ roll album.

      THIS, I can’t believe it never occurred to me but this exactly.

      • Neon Jesus says:

        its great entry level material though.

        I know this from personal experience. I like the album and all, but definitely do not put it on the pedestal that so many people seem to do.

    • jm6g90 says:

      I was thinking the other day New Noise is basically Song 2 drawn out for an extra 5 minutes or so

      which would actually make it an INDIE rock album. With screams

  21. Nein says:

    You support bands like SOIA, guess what they support :D

  22. Michael Caine says:

    Most of what you said is true, but people that define themselves as ‘hardcore kids’ and adopt the latest retarded scene uniform are retards. Hardcore will always have it’s place but most ‘lifers’ are fuckups or just plain stupid. I’ll always go to shows but you’d probably label me a square rather than a ‘ true scene supporter’, and as for IKEACORE: bands like Propagandhi take the contrived ‘aimless rebellion’ of many hardcore bands and actually write intelligent (however preachy and idealsitic) lyrics rather than the usual tropes about ‘the truth’, ‘brotherhood’ and ‘hating society’. Hardcore is great but the majority of self-defined hardcore bands will always be garbage.

    • Sergeant D says:

      I agree with all of this, especially “most ‘lifers’ are fuckups or just plain stupid.” My point is not that Band X is better than Band Y, or that if you don’t dress like a 19 year old your whole life then you’re a poser, it’s that I’m fucking tired of irrelevant old bands talking shit on all the new bands (Kevin Seconds being an especially sad example).

      • TLDR says:

        Turning 26 this month, can confirm as a lifer that I’m a definite fuckup as are most of my friends still into hardcore. Also agree about Propaghandi, but TBH the only record of theirs I like is Supporting Caste, the rest of them sound like 2nd rate(Canadian) NOFX to me.

        Also DGAF about bands writing about ‘the truth’, ‘brotherhood’ and ‘hating society,’ that’s what hardcore is and its badass. If the formula works, no reason to change it. You don’t need to have invented flour or sugar to bake a delicious apple pie. Gay analogy but w/e


  24. Samantha says:

    Sarge, I usually agree with what you have to say and I think you are a genius sometimes. But I don’t see a need for the type of negativity in this post. I don’t hold Refused on a pedestal, nor do I for any other bands. I went to the show because I got to shoot it and The Shape of Punk To Come is a great album with lots of good songs that I wanted to see live. And I am so glad I went, they were amazing and the lead singer is such a lovable dorky Swedish man. I don’t pretend to know stuff about hardcore, nor do I talk about Refused in a douchebag manner. I don’t know who these people are that you are talking about.

    On a lighter note, Refused can’t go to other hardcore shows or support them because they are from the Swedish countryside and have to work at the herring factory when they are not touring!

  25. Halford88 says:

    So does youth of today fall into this category? They’ve been playing a slew of reunions, but we all know ray isn’t edge anymore, and who knows who else in the band is. Lord knows if Porcell showed up to a show, he would prolly either get swarmed by kids or go un-noticed haha.

    • Inmyheadache says:

      I went to see the Spits a few years ago and Porcell walked by with some chick eating ice cream.

      I’m pretty sure Lance Bass walked by that night too.

  26. ad says:

    and yet nobody has pointed out that New Found Glory is not a hardcore band, but a cheesy pop punk that cashed in on Blink 182s success…

    • Sergeant D says:

      NFG has always supported hardcore dude, especially Chad.

    • Lear says:

      Made up of 100% hardcore dudes. Same way that BDM is a “death metal” band, but really it’s just a bunch of hardcore dudes.

    • Michael Caine says:

      ahaha NFG is a guilty pleasure of mine. We could argue about definitions being based on background etc but the music sure aint hardcore. Of course every entry level hardcore kid can drop the “But he was in Shai Hulud line”, but it doesn’t make NFG hc.

    • Neon Jesus says:

      NFG have more hardcore cred than most ‘hardcore’ bands today. Fallout Boy are in that same boat as well. Both of those bands came out of their respective hardcore scenes yet still supported them by taking their friends that were in hardcore bands on tour with them and shit.

  27. tweeed says:

    brb going to a Jerry Only Misfits show. tr00 punx rock.

  28. villeyk says:

    I recognized myself partly from the description and that’s why I have to write!

    I don’t know if you know this but the reason for Refused’s comeback was that they never had a chance to play a decent tour after “The Shape of Punk to Come”. And now, when they finally realized how big influence that record and their band had on people they wanted to pay some respect for it. Yes, cynics can say that is bullshit but let them. I want to believe.

    I don’t get this negativity, I really don’t. How does Vogel know about how much Refused members support local bands and buy demos? Have Refused members been talking shit about hardcore of today? And if they have so what? People do that all the time.

    There will always be that bunch of people who go apeshit over “cult heroes” reuniting. It happened with GY!BE few years back and now with Refused. Being this butthurt about it is puzzling because usually this site is against this kind of negativity.

    I don’t know what Refused means to people there in the States but at least here in Scandinavia it has always been popular BUT practically only within the hardcore scene.

    In these hipster faggotry infested times where the regular lifecycle of some new cool electro band is something like 10 months, I’m just so happy that band that has made something truly sustainable comes back and (from what I’ve heard) is still tight as fuck.

    Refused is playing in my hometown later this summer and I will definitely be there. And I’m even not that much into Refused or hardcore and never considered me as a hardcore kid. But I want to see them still, partly because I like them, partly because I’m just curious and partly because they had so huge impact to following bands and genres.

    And yeah, greetings from Finland. You have some devoted readers here!

    • Sergeant D says:

      Please read more carefully. I think it’s great if bands want to do a reunion and people want to go to it. What irritates me, and what I specifically complained about in this post, was bands (and their fans) who get up on their high horse and talk shit about newer hardcore bands when they themselves walked away from hardcore years ago.

      • PCHhomeboy says:

        do you realize that refused has not talked any shit in this matter though? so that nulls the point you keep trying to make in the comments. the only person who made butthurt oldfag comments was vogel and then you did as well in your post

        refused hasnt said shit it’s all vogel being jelly that his band never broke up and still plays rec centers and refused came back and sold out terminal 5. get over it bro!!!


          • PCHhomeboy says:

            ok so you rip on refused for being oldfags and the only proof of this you have is something that you got them to write for this site????

            yo brah, you do realize what you started this site as right???? you want people to be tongue in cheek, have fun and not be so srs but because of refused doing this on YOUR site they are now butt hurt oldfags??? doesnt make sense to me

            you really need to chill on this vendetta shit you got going on refused. for someone who is all about hating on bands who are in the NFC, this shit is next level NFC

            look at this comments thread brah, this aint hipsters here sticking up for refused. its your readers wondering when YOU became so butt hurt. this was the most NFC post youve ever done


            • Jonnyfilth says:

              Dude you do realise sarge didn’t tell him what to write, yeah? The dude poured out his own hatred of modern bands because he is an oldfag. You keep going on and on and on and fucking on about how great refused are and how Sarge should stop doing something you don’t like, and you think HE needs to give it a rest? Fuck!!

            • PCHhomeboy says:

              from reading his post it doesnt look like he spewed any hatred. he made fun of shit which is what everyone does on this site. sarge is being the butthurt old fag he talks about despising and it should be mentioned

              btw vitals sucks my dude

              i dont think refused is great by any means. i like shape of punk to come yes but i could give a fuck if they reunited or not.

            • Jonnyfilth says:

              Brb suisiding myself because I was totally hanging on your every word and am now thoroughly monumentally depressed that you don’t like my band.

              Nice try though.

              Also you have left like 50 comments here outlining how sore your anal hole is about stuff Sarge said, and you’re still calling everyone else butthurt dickriders?????

          • jennythunders says:

            Is it possible that Vogel got butt hurt by the comment Dennis made about Terror and this is his backlash?

  29. Taytex says:

    This post was had too much legitimate anger and made me uncomfortable :/

    And I honestly feel like Vogel’s rant was a little uninspired. Did Refused make some speech at a show about how lame current hardcore is or something? I know that their big thing was trying to ‘reinvent’ hardcore with The Shape of Punk to Come, do they act butthurt that they weren’t exactly successful? I don’t really think it’s fair to accuse them of not supporting bands once they brokeup, they went on to form bands like International Noise Conspiracy and AC4. Sure, they didn’t play Peabodys a bazillion times and sell a ton of hoodies, but they didn’t disappear from hardcore necessarily.

    Also I didn’t know Terror actually played one of the Refused shows. It’s uber-lame they they agreed to it and then decided to get preachy afterwards.

  30. XMNZSX says:

    Never cared about Refused, I always thought they were pretensious, boring and naive as fuck (THE SHAPE of PUNK TO COME… really?!). That said, it’s not like Terror is the true representation of DIY hardcore, is it? Although it would be funny to see Scott Vogel on some stand actually buyin’ new harcore bands DT on a show, hehehe!

    • Neon Jesus says:

      If you look at what the hardcore scene started to splinter and gravitate towards, The Shape of Punk to Come really was a pretty apt title. Bands did start to experiment more with alternate instrumentation and such. Sure someone else would have made an album like that eventually, but the album served as entry level material for a lot of guys that probably went on to form bands that played more than just NYHC, which is what a lot of the scene was at the time. Basically, my point is that while I don’t think the album is that amazing, I do acknowledge its relevance within the scene, which is something that a lot of people look over because Refused are basically the Slipknot of hardcore: Entry level as hell and everyone within the scene acts like they hate them.

  31. junjunweet says:

    I always thought it was gay that refused copied that ian svenonius dude twice in succession and then everyone was all “groundbreaking poineers!” and now they r prolly rich from it while that other dude is no doubt living with his parents and #crying.

  32. fuzz says:

    LOL @ ppl getting their butts hurt at the fact that Sarge got his butt hurt at some hipsterfggts who got their butts hurt about the hardcore scene

  33. Anonymous says:

    I think Vogel even knows that when Terror eventually split up they won’t get anywhere near 30k a show to reunite and some sort of recognition from hipsters / non hc fans like refused have got now, they’d end up the same way as Ringworm, Integrity or Unbroken, have a few massive reunion shows then return to the shitty clubs they were playing when they were first going out on tour.

  34. XheartburnX says:

    Once I saw Refused open for Snapcase. they were pretty good, but it was before The Shape of Punk, so I don’t know how many scene points that gets me. More or Less than if I saw them after the shape?

    I don’t get the Refused hype or the Refused defenders that have shown up here.

    My opinion on Refused is that basically the fans have ruined the band for me. Not all of the fans, but way too many are jerk off hipsters. They are hipster band now, and the whole things reeks of “look how underground I am. I saw Refused.”

    I don’t know. Maybe this already said.

  35. Brootalxxxbro says:

    its cool jumping on the “im more hardcore than you” thang kids. you said you dont go to many shows anymore cus youre not 19 anymore. no fucking shit neither are the guys in Refused. pre 1998 when a shape of punk to come came out they supported their own scene as hard as the anus in terror that youre so far up. they supported their scene with tons of bands that didnt even go anywhere. post 98 denis stayed in the punk scene for 14 years plus doing T(I)NC.

  36. Midas Welby says:

    Since I’m a metalfag in his 30s let me give you a recent parallel to this story: a few years ago (like close to ten) Sodom was casting a bit of shade on Venom for “reforming” (Cronos and some other nameless Brits) and headlining Wacken when Sodom never went away, kept putting out solid albums and touring nonstop while everyone was lauding Venom for their big, shitty comeback – this is when metal reunions were first taking off and every other band was calling their album “Resurrection” or “Redemption” or “Return Of [allusion to old stuff]“. My point is, let the clowns pay for their memories and let the bands sop them up for one more payday if it’s there, whatever. I hate Refused – I still remember watching the metal show on Muchmusic in Canada when “New Noise” came on, thinking it was the worst video for the shittiest song I ever witnessed. Next thing you know everyone is calling them geniuses and their album a classic.
    Being old sucks.

    • CallPastorJerkface says:

      I am thinking that “Return Of [allusion to old stuff]” may be the greatest unused album title in all music history.

  37. mikeg says:


  38. Brah says:

    What I got out of this was basically “If you really don’t give a shit about hardcore or the fact that it’s for kids as well as your old shit, you missed the point of why anyone listened to you in the first place and I think you’re an asshole”.

    Sounds about right. I wasn’t interested in the Refused reunion basically because I’m 23 and I could give a fucking shit about some gay old JNCO band that makes super pretentious internet posts about how awful kidsthesedays are and their artistic JNCO integrity (airwalks only).

    While part of SYWH is “avoiding butthurt” it’s also about fostering acceptance for the bands that are drawing younger kids, getting younger kids excited about music, and as gay as it sounds, generally trying to help different parts of the underground music scene understand one another and generally Be Nice About Shit and Have Fun. This is legitimately a valid topic because these bands become extremely popular and then completely ignore every other band and play exclusive shows to only a few “important” cities, and worst-case spend their time trash-talking kids these days and tearing down any change in attitude or sound that kids are excited about. They just forgot this (hardcore, music scene, independent-ish music in it’s various forms) is supposed to be for/about young people and what gets them excited, not their dumb npr subaru-dad elitist (hipster) agenda.

    I’m not trying to sound “mad” here because srs no care about shows I’ll never go to and nobody I know talks about, but this is like when I hear some butthole trying to convince a kid in a deathcore shirt that his band isn’t real music and he should listen to [insert butthole's taste here] instead. I see the dudes from Refused post shit about how horrible everything these days is and how they were doing something that really “meant something” but they haven’t done a goddamn thing for like… 20 years or some shit? I don’t fucking know they’re old who cares. People see this attitude and ME TOO on it and try convincing kids their bands all suck and they should “just listen 2 REAL music man”. Punchline is Refused are going to tour basically never because they don’t actually want to work or dedicate themselves the way the young bands they trash do. Bums me out.

    • Sergeant D says:

      Thank you for ‘getting the point of this post’ (srs). Sad that so many people interpreted it as butthurt.

    • Coffemug says:

      While I agree with most of this, the fact that most people are missing here is that at least some of these dudes have stayed in bands more or less continuously since Refused broke up (and not only TINC btw). No need to whine about them not being part of the scene and suddenly re-emerge for grabbing cash, when this is downright false. I am guessing they’ve done their fair share of work up north.
      Sorry to single out your post Brah, it’s just that yours was the most well-put one regarding this.
      And for the record, I normally don’t give two shits about any of these bands really, I’m just a northern euro that gets hints of a hurting butt when people claim shit they don’t know shit about (again, not directed towards you bro).

      • Brah says:

        No it’s cool, I don’t know anything about Refused except that they were gay and old and then reformed to play super speshul dates after talking shit on the internet about all manner of things including Kids These Days.

        I just don’t like to see the “all change is terrible let’s listen to bands full of 50 year olds” dinosaur mentality. Sort of: “cool that your favorite band reformed, please don’t shit-talk a scene that has moved forward for two decades since you stopped liking it”.

  39. Scott “hardcore” Vogel

  40. Anonymous says:

    Quick question, so is an “Ipod Dj” a person that listens to a shit load of genres? (HxC, rap, pop punk, deathcore, djent, slam, etc.) If so I fall into that category.

  41. Girl U Gay! says:

    Don’t give any fucks about either band or hardcore in general. When does the new devourment come out?

  42. thecodelus says:

    People getting butthurt about Sarg getting butthurt!?!?!?


  43. I will be heard says:

    Ha ha. The funny thing is none of you posers are Hardcore…whatever the fuck that means.

    I always thought that Hardcore was about not being judgmental and taking a positive mindset. Whereas you’re all whining like a bunch of bitchy High School Girls.

    Oh and spot the odd one out “SOIA, Madball, Terror, New Found Glory and Hatebreed” – what the fuck!!! New Found Glory…a hardcore band? Must’ve missed that memo.

    Also don’t bother responding to this either, I couldn’t give a fuck what any of you think anyway.

    Ah, that’s better.

  44. jm6g90 says:

    All the Refused bum-lickers ITT should check out the article where sarge sent the singer bunch of new bands to review.

    That’s the problem with Refused and the point of this article I think. These guys just shit on whatever is new these days as ‘inauthentic’ when they’re making a ton of money off a bunch of hipsters pretending to love them because pitchfork and NME tell them Shape of Punk is a ‘classic’ hardcore album.

    Which it isn’t btw. Its a pretty good album, but it’s basically indie with screams and some entry-level forays into electronic music.

  45. jake says:

    lol @ people citing the international noise conspiracy as “proof that refused didn’t forget their hardcore/punk roots.”

  46. Void Eater says:

    Serg, unlike all these fake fans, I’ll stick with u no matter what! If ur butt gets hurt occasionally, it’s alright, because I’m a REAL fan 4 lief!

  47. TLDR says:


    I don’t see how this post is butthurt like a shit ton of these comments say. Maybe a little bit, but who cares, its Sarge’s site and it wouldn’t be called Stuff You Will HATE if it didn’t piss people off by having an opinion.


    PS – “last of the diehards” gives me chills (srs), I hope thats what Terror followed this speech up with

  48. buttslam says:

    I don’t know whats funnier, sarge getting butthurt, admitting his butthurt, then defending his butthurt by saying people missed the point, or all of the comment(ies?) being butthurt over the initial post, I thought that type of tripe was for metal fags. All in all, this seems like normal sywh subject matter, just low on intentional humor.

  49. Midas Welby says:

    What this comments section needs now is Latinoheat jumping in to say Refused are okay but the big-booty white girls at their shows get him all en fuego.

  50. MEOW says:

    I never got the hype of Refused. I don’t like any of their stuff. Its like people that jizz over At The Drive-In. I have the same problem with grindcore and hipsters.

    Me: do you listen to any grindcore?
    hipster: uhhh no…wait is The Locust grindcore?
    Me: yeah I guess. Check out Insect Warfare then if you like that.
    hipster two months later: I hated that band all they do is play really fast and scream
    Me: but how can you like the Locust if you don’t like other grindcore?
    (then i realize most people parrot other people’s opinions on things when they don’t have their own opinions via jocking an underground band shirt but not knowing a single song the band did and just wearing the shirt for clout.)

    Its like special snowflakes only like special snowflake bands. I think Sarge is mad at people liking one “special” hardcore band and then disregarding the whole genre? Like how can you not like Terror if you like hardcore. You can’t. they slay

    • Brah says:

      LOL reminds me that mnstrm girls have some of my metal/hardcore shirts and rage out dudes trying to wife them for liking Bitter End or whatever. Never not funny!

  51. Andy says:

    This was awesome. I like Refused and ATDI, but they suck now and paying a couple hundred dollars to see them at a festival is bullshit. Those fucks weren’t ever good enough to warrant that much money in their prime. I’ll just spend 30 bucks, get shit-your-pants drunk, and watch NFG at Warped Tour.

  52. this guy has the comments says:

    This is hilarious, these comments remind me of the old days of this site where 90% of the comments were people whose butts were practically falling off.

  53. shawnyouwillhate says:

    “I DON’T SUPPORT THAT SHIT” = bodied

  54. Jonnyfilth says:


    Apparently saying something negative about Refused will cause hundreds of randoms who rarely / never actually participate in this site to show up and denounce it as “officially shit now”. Have any of you ppl actually read any of the other recent articles? They’re literally ALL fun / light hearted posts about easycore and violent movies and lulzy pictures and silly teenagers and making fun of bands we like. That is 100% EXACTLY “what this site has ALWAYS been about”.

    How is it possible for one single negative article (which is an opinion Sarge is totally entitled to, just like you’re allowed to think gay old dinosaur bands are “important”) to change your whole opinion of everything??
    “he’s angry all the time / is a hardcore IMN / is a NFC butthole” …WUT???

    You people actually do have a legitimate / relevant point: We don’t really come to SYWH to hear butthurt negative opinions. Problem is, you drowned out your real point with Refused dickriding and berating Sarge for actually saying how he feels about a scene he’s been apart of since before you were born.

    No dickriding / white knighting, just backing my bro bcz all these insanely faggy comments totally missed the point.

  55. XheartburnX says:

    on a related note. remember when hoobastank has that song that rips a part form new noise?

  56. nochance says:

    is this really a support your local bands post? hahaha, thats fantastic!

  57. Dan says:

    How dare Refused get money to play music! Those greedy bastards!

  58. cgrind says:

    I guess I should probably check out Refused and see what the big fucking deal is. This comment thread makes me think of a hospital wing after an anal prolapse outbreak

  59. Perry Stalsis says:

    Strong agreement with Brah, it’s absolutely what I got from this post. Think about it on that level, SRSLY. Has anyone thought that in a small way that it is manipulative? It’s perhaps not entirely Refused’s fault, they may have agents that know how to maximize the dolla stacking process but I’ve known hipsterfggts since the late 90′s that jock these cats endlessly, and in most situations it’s the ideal of the band, not their actual sound. And ‘The Shape of Punk to Come’ is one of the most self serving album titles I’ve ever heard. ‘Check out my new album, it’s gonna change things evade I said it would, not because anyone else has said’, c’mon. There’s plenty of bands I live that have done similar things, don’t get me wrong.
    I’ve tried really hard not to unnecessarily attack them bros, but my opinion is that they are full of shit, and have never struck me as ‘hc’
    And frankly I think this kind of discussion is important, butthurt will occur but it helps everybody better articulate why they have a gut feeling that they don’t like a band and can’t hold up an argument when a zealot hits them up for reasons.
    This is discussion, right? Discussions have opinions. Opinions can be somewhat emotionally charged too. But if that isn’t the point of a ‘comments section’ my whole life is a lie

  60. Nightshift says:

    Never got into Refused, can’t figure out what the big deal is about Terror. Bloated boring sacred cow bands. Too much fucking hero worship in hardcore.

  61. Anonymous says:

    Terror rules, obviously. Despite occasional shitty production they have put out straight gold for a long time. I am an old (late 20s) hardcore kid. I hadn’t thought of refused in years until I heard about this reunion. Listened to songs to fan the flames and it goes fucking hard. Rather be dead? I mean come on, that song bangs. It sounds like trial with skinny guy vocals. obviously they are elitist cocksuckers, I watched refused are fucking dead a long time ago and decided I really didn’t like them anymore. Same with the Dennis reviews current music post. The thing is, the reason they are really popular is cause they are really good at the shit they do and it’s more accessible than say terror. Also by the time most people got into them they were already broken up, so they’ve had ten years or so to build up a “legacy” or some gay shit. I get the not being able to disconnect a band from their fan base. Refused fans are definitely fggt cocksuckers. Vogel comes off a little whiny and may indeed just be pissed they’re making more money than him, but he’s also totally right and I respect him for saying it. Oh well, refused are dope and a ton of fucking losers like them. More power to them, get money. Hardcore is i guess like any other subculture where people get pissed about people succeeding outside of it. I am paraphrasing Wes nightmare talking about people being butthurt over some girls or cold cave or whatever gay band he’s doing now. Also I’m sure tons of people said the same shit over the an reunion. I forgot about that. Ha. Similar fan base:
    Faggy dilettantes who think they know what the fuck they’re talking about. Neat.

  62. The shape of Crabcore to come says:

    Lol. This comment thread is like the Inception of butthurt.

  63. thetotalbro says:

    …I’m 20 and what’s a “Refused”?

  64. Ray Concrete says:

    I’m old and saw Refused in 1998 opening for The Hives opening for No Fun At All. Where can I cash in my scene points?

    Also, No Fun was had at that gig… At All.

    Why is Refused relevant?

  65. Jacob says:

    I don’t understand all the hate on the fans and the band, really. I like the band and I generally stay away from hardcore (more into death metal and prog). I’m not gonna lie, they seem more like a punk rock/hardcore/pop punk mix, not really just straight up hardcore so I don’t get the connection and the bit them supporting their scene. Their stuff before Shape of Punk to Come could be considered more hardcore but they seemed to steer away from it on SOPTC. Terror seems a tad upset that a band that hasn’t been around for a while is getting more attention than them, the guys who have been “troo” to their scene this whole time. Also, I’m not a hipster fggt, there are some hardcore bands out there, I just choose not to jump on every new band’s dick because a lot of hardcore is not that good and I don’t revere Refused as the pinnacle of hardcore.

  66. Anonymous says:

    doodz in refused having fun, fans having fun. just a band who broke up instead of changing members 10000 times (terror) getting off their high horse and not givings effes about keeping some reputation.

    who cares stfu. this site is starting to suck now and it makes me sad :(

  67. Nightshift says:

    I really used to think it was the hipsters who were worse, now I’m not so sure. It never surprises me that so many guys who lived and breathed hardcore from the mid-80s onward have made forays into cults and naive mass movements, only to crash or live in a childish state of denial later. I think a lot of people get it wrong. You don’t have to be poor or tough or any of those glorified characterstics everyone loves to tout as endemic to these “hardcore lifer” guys. You just have to be a true believer, and that’s so much worse.

  68. DINNIS says:

    this post is for small children. also you mad i turned your podcast down?

  69. Anonymous says:

    Honestly, who cares? I thought this scene police bullshit was left in the 90s… guess not.

  70. Corey says:

    Who the fuck is Refused?

    Terror is fucking awesome. End.

  71. Forever Discontent says:

    I love both of these bands equally, but I really don’t understand where this ‘hipster’ mentality comes from when talking about refused? If you are saying all refused fans are the same, which you know they aren’t, terrors fans are just as guilty via being ‘all the same’??

    Terror is one of the few seriously consistent hardcore bands, whereas refused had one of the most unique albums of the nineties… I don’t see the comparison…

    • VyceVictus says:

      The Hipsterism label refers to the fact that people only pretend to like them because it’s cool. Nobody thinks it’s cool to like Terror.

      • Forever Discontent says:

        Dude I disagree, i think both bands are just as bad. The amount of people I have personally seen at terror shows just there to be ‘be seen’ is ridiculous. Do people really pretend to like refused though??

        • VyceVictus says:

          This is a bit beyond my scope since 1) I am not an expert in White Foolishness and 2) Ive been away for a while so modern hip culture is kinda foreign to me. Mainly though, the hipsterism refers to the fact thata vast number of people who tout how important and influential Refused are now are the same type of people who wouldn’t give a fuck about them and mock them back in their prime. The actual liking of the music is irrelevant. Rather, its being seen for liking (or disliking) as fit for current fashion.

  72. Joris says:

    Total bullshit on Scotts behalf. Refused quit right after the release of shape of punk to come. They could have easily gone on a lot longer and cashed in with the success of their latest album. Terror should have quit after their highpoint which was lowest of the low.
    And not caring about current bands and not going to shows anymore? Half of the refused guys played in AC4. Saw ‘em live once 2 years ago (for like 100 people) and it was amazing. Dennis also runs Ny vag records that probably doesn’t sell more than 1000 copies for each release. Check your facts before you start ranting Scott.

    • DiscreetSqueazer says:

      For real.

      Half of that audience wouldn’t be there to watch them, had they not heard a Refused song on a Punk O Rama album and decided to check out what all this “hardcore” business was about.

  73. Don't Worry About It says:

    I’m sorry, but did you really just try and put New Found Glory in the hardcore scene. Looks like someone needs a lesson in HXC themselves!

  74. Os boys says:

    Shut the fuck up already, Stop crying. Refused is better than terror and sure it’s frustrating to see a band call it FUCKING DEAD but then come back and play a bunch of shows but why don’t you go cry about gorilla biscuits, youth of today,unbroken. It’s very like Scott Vogel to bring tough guy flex back into hardcore while going up against a band like refused who was 10 times more original in their style. The truth is, they don’t give a shit about people like vogel and all you tough guy hc kids who sit on the internet doing nothing with your lives. They appreciate all the kids who went to the shows then, and still went last week.

    GET A FUCKING LIFE AND QUIT WHINING. Get off the Internet. And if you’re gonna be a homophobic price of shit, just say faggot. It makes you look stupid.

    • Sergeant D says:

      r u an faggot? pls rspnd :(

    • Corey says:

      LOL at listening to a band for their “originality”. Totally the reason I love Terror. LOL at “they don’t give a shit about people like vogel and all you tough guy hc kids who sit on the internet doing nothing with your lives.” Sounds like hardcore white knighting a band you’ve probably never met in your life.

    • Jonnyfilth says:

      Get off the Internet! Only I’m allowed to be on the Internet saying fuck and being tuff!! Quit your whining! Get a fucking lief! Faggot!

  75. Andy says:

    Terror sucks. This blog is stupid, and a prime example of how most* of the hardcore scene has gone to shit. If you are not political with your hardcore, if you don’t stand for something, stand for anything, then why is your music aggressive.

    I’ll say this to the terror idiots faces, and I am sure you would take it from me. A whole lot of tuff talk and no substance.


    • ur moshing says:

      Can u ride Refused’s dick a little harder pls?
      Also, hardcore fans have said that the scene is “going to shit” since the 2nd hardcore band ever formed, the genre as a whole has been mostly apolitical, you can care about things without taking a political stand, and the music is made for/by 13-24 year old dudes who are fuckups, it should be pretty clear why it’s aggressive.

  76. tickle says:

    this is like if hundredth reunited in 2021 and all of the oldfag ikeacore fans got butthurt about how much their lulzy band means so much to them, and newfag hipsters cite hundredth and counterparts as “groundbreaking, inspirational bands”

  77. 50,000 Euro to book a show with Refused!!!! That’s the true hardcore spirit!

  78. ironyofitall says:

    This is some real nonsense! Not only what Scott said, but many of the postings here. Thinking for yourself is being “Hardcore”. Refused’s idea of HC was not signing to a major label..that is “Hardcore”. Signing to a major and getting your message out there and supporting a family with that is ALSO “Hardcore”. Knowing/recognizing it is time for your band to break up and not keep driving it into the ground after you feel you’ve reached your peak as an outfit is ALSO “Hardcore”. Moving on to other styles, expressing what you feel through music, and not staying confined to a genre is “Hardcore”. Judging a person/band for listening to what they lik, playing what they like, etc is NOT “Hardcore”, it’s called being a close-minded tyrant who is demeaning. Who knows if they went to shows..of whatever style..if they did..good..if not, that’s ok too – hey were probably busy with whatever challenges or experiences life threw them. Or playing in other bands that didn’t meet your pretentious scenester expectations in sound/lyrical content..sooo sorry for you…and good for them for getting back together..

  79. Brenden Sheard says:

    I think Scott Vogel is one of my favorite people now

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  81. H says:

    This is fucking stupid. Who gives a fuck about what Terror thinks. They were NEVER that good. If you don’t like Refused don’t go see them. If you do, then go see them. You don’t have to have been obsessed with hardcore for 10 years and go to local shows and still buy shitty demos from crap bands to have the right to go see a reunion show of a band you liked when you were in high school. People change. So do their interests, their priorities, and the bands they like.

  82. cmoney says:

    lol harcore.

  83. cmoney says:

    I thoroughly enjoyed the slugfest reunion many years ago, though.

  84. Chris Squire says:

    OK but doesn’t TERROR suck?

  85. Sykovrål says:

    Scott Vogel what a clown!
    Hoibak: For quite a few years you were vegan. You were pretty outspoken about it on stage. Despair and Buried Alive both had songs about it. Death of Your Perfect World was dedicated to vegans and vegetarians. Obviously now, you’re not vegan. Why’d you decide to stop?
    Vogel: I guess, I just stopped caring to be perfectly blunt with you. I used to be involved in stuff and I just stopped caring. I guess that no one in Terror, well that’s not true I guess Carl was, but the majority were not vegan and we were touring more than ever before. It was getting harder and I just stopped caring and that was that.

  86. j says:

    can we agree both bands blow cock (for different reasons)? terror are inked up white niggers playing an updated version of the bland chuggachugga style so many bands played 15 years ago and refused were the worst of a huge wave of swedish hardcore bands of uneven quality that crested in the 90s……they played crappy nyhc inspired shit, then some shitty hyper slayer ripoff shit and some really horrible experimental shit that people ate up with a spoon for some reason………….

  87. mr T says:

    Terror and Hatebreed suck… and so do their circle pitting bonehead straight edge neck tatted fanbase. Refused are charging too much and playing big venues. Not very punk…very capitalist. Which is a shame. Ill still see them though because they will play songs which are actually good, unlike Terror.

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  89. eenh says:

    i agree with everything except supporting xibalba

  90. br4ve says:

    I still attend hardcore shows, I have seen terror live and was lucky enough to see refused perform late last year. He is deftly wrong in assuming that refused fans are “ikea-core fggts” (what the fuck mate) I saw some seething, angry and passionate fans who got to connect to the music that got their blood pumping and made them question things back in teen years.

    Ahhh who gives a fuck its just throwing stones and pissing into the wind – Dennis made some harmless jives in a satirical interview, Vogel responds with some poorly thought out crap and we sit here like monkey’s caring about it.

    I’m going to go and listen to some bane and then maybe some Janis Joplin – how fucking dull the world would be if we only got wrapped up in hardcore music

  91. br4ve says:

    Btw New Found Glory are a bunch of old blokes who sing pop-punk and cheat on their girlfriends/wives with little girls – hardly fucking hardcore if you ask me.

  92. Trash says:

    I read the Dennis piece and honestly thought he was taking the piss the whole time.

    I’ve had a chance to meet the guy – I basically stalked the band last year around Australia and got to hang out with them in Sydney for a while. I can vouch for the fact that he’s got a very sardonic sense of humour and he’s extremely self-aware. Idk if he likes that stuff or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he acted extra oldfag to play up to SWYH readers.

    I stole a copy of The Shape Of Punk to Come when I was 10 – I was trying to get something else but nicked the wrong album and have been a fan of hardcore ever since. Best mistake of my life. I also like Terror and reckon they go as hard as anyone.

    /in b4 getting called a butthurt fggt for posting in old article.

  93. Will says:

    Terror is mad because Refused makes better music than they do.

  94. Will says:

    Refused isn’t “part of teh scene” enough for Terror. Proves that none of this is actually about making good music, as you yourself have said Sarge, hardcore is nothing more than a popularity contest.

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